WHY THE JAVANESE WONT LEAD THE TRUE HONEST JOBS IN INDONESIA? IS IT BECAUSE JAVANESE WERE SMASHED AND DESTROYED BY NEW RULER FROM FAR MIDLE EAST especially arab trader?

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:PWPYbfHIXcZIAM:http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1021/1123082593_6ca8149dfc_b.jpgJournal of Southeast Asian Studies (2007), 38:215-245 Cambridge University Press

doi:10.1017/S0022463407000021

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Research Article

Fugitive women: Slavery and social change in early modern Southeast Asia

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Eric A. Jonesa1 c1*

a1 Eric A. Jones is an Assistant Professor in the Department of History at Northern Illinois University.
Article author query
jones ea

Abstract
Female slaves in VOC-controlled Southeast Asia did not fare well under a legal code which erected a firm partition between free and slave status. This codification imposed a rigid dichotomy for what had been fluid, abstract conceptions of social hierarchy, in effect silting up the flow of underclass mobility. At the same time, conventional relationships between master and slave shifted in the context of a changing economic climate. This article closely narrates the lives of several eighteenth-century female slaves who, left with increasingly fewer options in this new order, resorted to running away.

Correspondence:

c1 Correspondence in connection with this paper should be addressed to eajones@niu.edu.

Footnotes
* I wish to thank some of the friends and colleagues who commented on earlier drafts of this manuscript: Shamsul AB, Barbara Andaya, Taylor Atkins, Jim Collins, Jeff Hadler, Tony Reid, Jean Taylor and Peter Zinoman. Deserving special attention are also the faculty and staff at various libraries and archives, libraries and collections in Indonesia (ANRI, ATMA, IKIP, LIPI, and UKM) and in the Netherlands (ARA, CBG, KB, UA, UL, KITLV, and TANAP). Finally the Nordholt-Leiden History Grant and the Allan Sharlin Memorial Award in Demography and History made this research possible

=======what do JAVANESE GIRLS THINK AND DO====================

54 Responses to “And what do Javanese girls think?”
on March 13, 2008 at 9:27 pm1 bob
‘Javanese girls’? An island with one of the richest cultures on the planet shudders at the offensive generalization.

Unspun, you’re debasing your excellent blog with this kind of trash. Like your occasional ‘pembantus are common’ stuff, this just reflects the usual racist nonsense of people who think Indonesian women are a type. We know what the blogger you’re quoting here is talking about, but does it need to be repeated in a more civilized forum such as yours?

If these foreigners can’t see beyond these stereotypes then let them stew in their own post-colonial swill, but I know you don’t think like that so don’t pander to them. Please.

on March 13, 2008 at 10:05 pm2 andiesummerkiss
That is quite unfair stereotyping. I hope some Javanese girl can come up with something good and smart to say back to baliblog.com. He needs to keep his “tips” for himself.

It is not only a rude insult to a rich ethnic group, also horrible offence to Indonesian women in general.

Bob is right, that is just pure trash-blogging. In his part, of course.

on March 14, 2008 at 12:15 am3 unspun
@Bob: Chill man. Why are you trying so hard to display the ingenuousness and naivety of a an American liberal? Has it occured to you that Unspun finds such postings repugnant and needs to be unspun, but unlike you who presume to speak for the javanese (”An island with one of the richest cultures on the planet shudders at the offensive generalization”), Unspun feel unworthy of such pretensions.

Perhaps that is why Unspun is inviting the Javanese women to speak up for themselves.

@Andie: I hope some smart Javanese woman, and there are so many of them out there, would too. So any Javanese girls out there who want to put these guys right?

on March 14, 2008 at 2:58 am4 Marisa
Funny how a travel blog can provide dating tips as well.

From the author’s About page.

Living in Bali means a ceremony can be taking place outside my house, a beautiful girl will lay offerings outside my door each day, and stop to say a prayer, people enjoy greeting others with a smile and have time to talk.

A beautiful girl will lay offerings outside my door each day. Really!? Last time I went to Bali, the offerings laid outside my door is from a dog.
Love the island, nonetheless.

And just as andie said, Javanese women, have your say!

on March 14, 2008 at 5:26 am5 Rob
Unspun…

You know that I live for these postings. I have to disagree with Bob on this one. This is not beneath you or the blog! Besides it is not your opinion but the relaying of a stereotype and it is the stereotype that is offensive and not the posting of it.

The biggest problem that us leftist leaning loony liberals have is burying our heads in the sand. The way to break a stereotype down is to expose it for what it is and not pretend it does not exist.

But reverse this one and see what happens. When a Javanese girl walks into a mall, a restaurant, a bar, or a nightclub and all the girls start waving to him or come up offering to massage his obviously tired shoulders after a hard week, you know the bloke has been around! So, he probably is not worth spending any time with as you undoubtedly will become just another notch on his belt and a drunken story he shares with his mates, assuming he even remembers that he spent the night with you on the morning after!

Besides, male tourists in Bali consider latching onto Javanese women in all manner of places a bit of sport and a good way to waste a couple of lonely hours (ouch, an equally harsh stereotype).

Yep, generalizations whatever way they come are offensive but pretending they do not exist is not the way to go!

Unspun, as always, a thought provoking post…

trims!

on March 14, 2008 at 12:34 pm6 ambar
well well well unspun, you’ve surprised me that put this ’stereotype’ clipping on your blog. As a javanese girl I felt offended with baliblog remark, even probably some of his view might correct (his wife from east java, doesn’t she?).

I think his view might be correct in Indonesia’s setting. Being a bule means you will get more local girls than ever. Baliblog seriously thinking that he was benefit from that position. Hm typical mindset of westerners living in developing country. Good point though!

on March 14, 2008 at 1:41 pm7 pj_bali
“being a bule means means you will have more girls than ever”

“typical mindset of westerners living in developing country”

thats kind of a stereotype too isn’t it?

Anyways…

I asked my (javanese) neighbor what she thought of the posting and she just laughed. I do seem to remember her coming home one night quite distressed about some remarks made behind her back while having dinner with her expat boyfriend (now husband). It may be fair to say that some elements of Baliblogs posting are true some of the time. I am only guessing here but maybe these kinds of stereotypes are the result of experiences real or shared. I mean if you had a bad experience with a certain type taxi say 3-4 times wouldn’t you tend to avoid that type of taxi.

BTW there is a Warung Batavia on Jl Kunti ( just off the road which has a much better ambience than the one on Raya Kerobokan.

Regards

on March 14, 2008 at 2:47 pm8 Unspun
@pj: perhaps baliblog’s observations would be acceptable if he headlined it ”Dating a Cheap Javanese Girl?” As opposed to a Javanese with more class, of course.

on March 15, 2008 at 8:04 am9 Bonar
Now you make bules wondering whether they get “cheap javanese girls” or the “not so-cheap” ones. Some may get offended that you call their wives cheap.

on March 15, 2008 at 9:33 am10 unspun
@Bonar: well, as they say, water finds its own level. Some bules will go for cheap, easy Javanese girls becoase they themselves are cheap. Others with more finese would go for classy ones. Works for everyone, not just the Bule-Java combination. Those who take offense can ponder on the saying: siapa yang makan cabe dialah yang rasain pedas nya (I hope I got it right)

on March 15, 2008 at 11:23 pm11 Rob
Unspun…

On the saying front:

“belum makan nasi, belum makan!”

I would have thought that taking your acquaintance to the warung would have made sense, particularly if you are a cheap bastard! Simply, if you take her to Bali Bakery for breakfast and she eats there, then you will have to treat her a second breakfast where she can eat rice because after all “having not eaten rice is the same as having not eaten at all!”

on March 17, 2008 at 9:35 am12 Oigal
So what are the Indonesian men getting so upset about ? It’s exactly the way a significant portion of men (Majority?) treat women in Indonesia.

The snide comments, winks and whispers.

I was out yesterday with my wife (Indonesian) and we had the misfortune to be at place where a herd of government types turned up in their shiny new cars and arrogant tax payer funded glory. Sure enough, it was only a matter of time before one of the little pr*cks made a snide remark about my wife (and mother of three children) in bahasa to the laugher of his mates.

He made two mistakes, one …I speak bahasa, two.. my wife nor I am are short of words or courage when it cames to dealing with anjing. Was an ugly scene tho and he did decline my forceful offer to deal with it like men..cowards all..
Better still was the look on his wife’s face, as the character flaws of her husband was expalined to her by my better half.

Instead of worrying about what a blog has to say. You might want to consider why so many women are forced to prositute themselves. Absmal education standards, no support for women with children whose coward husbands decide to desert them. Staving children in the provinces..

Before the xenophobes start talking perhaps you should look at what is really happening in your own country.

on March 17, 2008 at 1:17 pm13 Rob
Oigal…

Straight shooter as always! That is why I read your blog!

I did not know you were married to a local. I guess I have learned something new about you today and you are not as anonymous as you were yesterday!

I agree there is a double standard here and the way that some Indonesian men treat their women it is hardly any wonder there are increasing numbers of Indonesian women seeking out other nationalities to become their other half.

Rather than confront the real issues, the general misogyny of some Indonesian men towards their women, it is all that much easier for Indonesian men to label Indonesian women with foreigners as prostitutes (the term of preference that I have foundmost use is “whore”).

I am married to a local too and at first my wife encouraged me to ignore the snide remarks and forget about it but after 12 years or so I guess it has worn a little thin and now I get active encouragement to go for it! I speak Indonesian and have found that I use “babi lu!” in preference to anjing

Not surprised that it was not taken outside and resolved like men. But, the dressing down he got from your missus in front of his missus and his mates would have meant there was no saving face…

on March 17, 2008 at 1:42 pm14 unspun
@Rob @Oigal: maybe we should all form an association of expat bloggers with Indonesian wives

on March 17, 2008 at 2:56 pm15 Rob
Now there’s a thought!

on March 17, 2008 at 2:58 pm16 Oigal
Hi Rob,

Thanks bloke..

Term they use here is pelacur, they are not smart enough to use english. Although the term would be better suited to the types supposedly looking after the peoples interests.
Despite all the xenophobic rubbish you hear, ask one of your Indonesia blokes to take you to see one of the Indonesia brothels that exist in every town, you better be prepared for some fairly soul destroying scenes tho.

Unspun,

Perhaps thats good idea, as Rob said “we have about had a gutful of the rude, ignorant types” that pass for representatives of decorum”

BTW..That’s why I figure I have the right to speak out. In any “normal” country I would qaulify by rights of family, time in country and contribution to the country to qualify as a citizen, so the whiners had better get used to the stumps rants and raves.

on March 18, 2008 at 12:30 am17 Marisa
I speak Indonesian and have found that I use “babi lu!” in preference to anjing

Actually, that isn’t in preference to anjing. That’s in preference to, err ..another mammal.
Have you been receiving such remarks yourself? It’s a shame. Really. You must take this things seriously though, especially concerning on how safe is your living and working environment, and know where to file a complaint.
My guess is you’re not living in Jakarta, or Bali.

For expat husbands, with all due respect, does it ever occur to you gentlemen that this type of incidents isn’t exactly about you being a Caucasian? Perhaps it’s more of how your wives represent herselves, the lifestyle you both share, or how the both of you relate to the locals.

Do a small talk, basa basi, give Lebaran parcels, say Hello, or Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam when you bumped into natives you happened to know, join in and be a participative citizen. And you’re Caucasians/bules, it’s easier to get the natives laughing if you’re a Caucasian, since basically you’re like people coming out of their television set. But they are not laughing AT you.

Anyways, I am an Indonesian, I’d get sneering remarks too if ever I behave “unwisely”. That’s Indonesia, what do you expect? Las Vegas?

Those are just tips though, surely you know better about your spouses, and yourselves, than I do.

on March 18, 2008 at 1:50 am18 Marisa
On second thought, nevermind the Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam part, natives will assume you’ve converted and that would lead to a major misunderstanding. Unless you actually have.

That’s just how people like me do stuffs around the neighbourhood.

on March 18, 2008 at 8:34 am19 Oigal
Ah Marissa… I appreciate your comments and believe you are serious about trying to help. Don’t get offended but by your own comments you prove how far Indonesia has to go to get out the xenophobic rut it is in.

“know where to file a complaint” surely you are not serious? government types are the worst offenders..

“all due respect, does it ever occur to you gentlemen that this type of incidents isn’t exactly about you being a Caucasian? Perhaps it’s more of how your wives represent herselves, the lifestyle you both share, or how the both of you relate to the locals.”

Despite the obvious and with due respect, obnoxious undertones of that statement. Whose business is it anyway to judge our life styles and how we represent ourselves and by right does give anyone to comment (always to the woman never brave enough to confront the male head to head).

Despite that your inference about life styles and represent ourselves stands on its own as insulting anyway. For the record (and to have to state this is a slur on Indonesian attitudes) we dress politely (no bikinis, no high heels or cheap dresses which to what you are alluding to I assume).

Thanks for your tips on how to get along with the “locals”. Speaking for myself we have live in our village for a lonng time and obviously have no issues there. As the odd sexist, insecure moron has been dealt with and the rest we have good relations with. (Again with due respect, pretty patronising comment M)

It Is the general attitude amongst the larger populace and it has everything to do with being an expatriate’s wife or gf.

“I’d get sneering remarks too if ever I behave “unwisely”.”

Insulting comment M, who are you to assume I or anyone else are acting “unwisely”..take a breath and look around and see how women are treated in this country.

“say Hello, or Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam” Here is another classic!! ..Why on earth should I or anyone else use that greeting? Fairly sure I am in South East Asia not the Middle East. The fact that you throw that in, demonstrates prevailing inability of the majority (?) to accept there are other cultures and norms of behaviour that go to make up a significant part of Indonesia. It’s about time for a lot of the little children to grow up.

Sorry Marissa, I believe you really did what to help but your comment is both condescending therein and insulting. Worse than that your assumed generalisations, were as bad as the comments made by the layabouts and to be honest to hear such a comment from an educated woman in Indonesia.

I realise this has probably offended you, but may I suggest you go back and read what you wrote and what subtext of the comments really are.

on March 18, 2008 at 8:54 am20 Rob
Wrote a really long post in response to this but it has not appeared. I have tried to re-post it and get a wordpress message about it being a duplicate…

Oigal has made many of the same points that I tried to make in my missing post…

on March 18, 2008 at 9:03 am21 Rob
Unspun… I still cannot post the comments I want? but if I try and re-post them I get a wordpress message that the comments are a duplicate post but they do not appear? Help lah!

on March 18, 2008 at 9:11 am22 Rob
Final try…

I am not sure what mammal you are referring to, but OK.

My living and working environment is plenty safe enough. If it wasn’t I wouldn’t be here!

Good guess, but you are wrong. I live in Bekasi and work in Jakarta.

If it is not about me being a bule, then what is it about? Are you suggesting that my wife presents herself in such a way that she deserves to be called a pelacur or any of the other possible derivatives, and a traitor to her culture for marrying a bule? Interesting observation considering you neither know me or my better half personally.

In the kampung where I live there are no problems! Be a participative citizen, enough with the assumptions already. You do not know me so where do you get off telling me about how I should participate in my community?

What we are talking about here is not making small talk or doing the basa basi thing with the locals but rather when we go to a shopping centre or the movies or to lunch and there is some fool thinking that he can say whatever he wants and be as rude as he likes because an Indonesian women has fallen in love with and married a bule or just enjoys hanging out with a bule friend! I do not really get the point about how doing any of the things that I note above constitute behaving unwisely!

Feel free to explain how going to a mall to do a little shopping is unwise behaviour and how that then gives the right to some poor imitation of a man to abuse either my wife or I?

I wonder if this was reversed and we were talking about Indonesian men going out with bule women would the arguments be any different?

Sorry Marisa but this is not how it works in the neighbourhood! Your naive and prejudiced response should probably amaze me but it doesn’t. Your suggestion is that once my wife and I have been abused that the reason for the abuse is our own fault and that we should be thankful and start dishing out the lebaran presents. Reminds me a little of the idea of “Hey Mister, mana duit?” The simple rationale being if you’re white you should give and give generously and give often.

I have been living in Indonesia for more than 15 years now. Yep, I know the language, I know the culture, and I know the hoods! Yep, I know it is Indonesia and I do not expect anything else but Indonesia. I am here because I want to be here. If I wanted to be in Vegas I would watch CSI!

I am not sure that either of your posts are serious, particularly after reading the tip that I should not worry about the abuse because whenever someone sees me they have the right to abuse me because I am white and it looks like I have just come out of the TV. Are you kidding me???

If they are not laughing AT me then what is it that they are laughing at and what is it that gives them the right to behave badly and rudely? You are Indonesian, right? Perhaps you can explain your culture to us uncultured white folk who do not understand or know better.

Your “tips” convey a deep misunderstanding of the original post, but even more interesting is your justification of the behaviour of a minority of your fellow Indonesians as “that is just the way it is!”

To each their own…I will leave any other analysis or comments to my equally, perhaps more, capable bule colleagues!

on March 18, 2008 at 9:30 am23 Rob
Have not been able to work it out so I posted my comments on my own blog. I can do that, right? My comments are a response to the postings by Marisa…

http://therabexperience.blogspot.com/2008/03/comments-from-another-blog-unspun.html

on March 18, 2008 at 11:38 am24 unspun
@Rob: Akismet arrested you comments but Unspun has saved you from its clutches.

I think its not so much a case of you being a bule but that there are too many bules exhibiting the characteristics of what in japan they would call Charisma Man

on March 18, 2008 at 1:51 pm25 Oigal
Unspun..come on..

Westerners make up what .00 something of the population and then people you alluding to make up a fraction of that.

We are talking about basic manners and civil behaviour and it’s sad to hear educated people make excuses for that.

on March 18, 2008 at 5:01 pm26 Marisa
@ Oigal and Rob

I am just saying that those judgments are possible. So, let me ask you something: in YOUR reality, according the little voices inside your head, what do you think I am doing? Pointing my finger at you, and judge you, and laughing at you and your wives?

Ohohoho, aren’t we paranoid.

Honestly speaking, I REALLY DON’T GIVE A DAMN about your personal lives if this whole thingie on interracial relationships (and how the locals reacts to it) weren’t already everywhere in comments, blog posts, etc. EVERYWHERE. It’s just too much, it may even have influence yours and everybody else’s judgments on issues that are more important. Judgments that can actually affect the larger audience.

Then again, you already have a great wife, a great family, and great living here, right? THEN WHY ARE YOU STILL COMPLAINING ALL THE TIME!? It’s being toxic. Just live your life, and move on, forgodsakes.

And as I said, those are just tips, and I don’t know who the hell you people are anyways, except for the fact I know my own society. And the locals. I am a local. I happened to carry a small eetsy bitsy part of your genes as well.

All of your comments, seems to me, are nothing more than an act of self defense. Insecurity. And all the la-dee-da that everyday people complain about in life.

Wake up and smell the coffee, okay. Everyone has problems. Difference is, you wanted yours somehow turned into this huuuuuge socio-cultural issue that every goddamned *educated* locals must grapple with.

PS: Oh yes, and feel free to post another comment, highlighting every bit of my mistake with your neon green spidol marker or whatever. Yapping all over the place.

on March 18, 2008 at 6:12 pm27 Marisa
“I’d get sneering remarks too if ever I behave “unwisely”.”

Insulting comment M, who are you to assume I or anyone else are acting “unwisely”..take a breath and look around and see how women are treated in this country.

That’s unwisely in quote unquote gesture. Should I explain what quote unquote supposed to imply? Any English teacher around here?

And yes, I’ve taken a look around, I am one! D’oh.

“say Hello, or Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam” Here is another classic!! ..Why on earth should I or anyone else use that greeting? Fairly sure I am in South East Asia not the Middle East.

Well I use that greeting wherever necessary, it means Salam sejahtera, or Shalom. No big deal. Even Muslims now formally greet an audience with a Salam sejahtera.
But I thought I’ve corrected it:

On second thought, nevermind the Assalamualaikum/Walaikumsalam part, natives will assume you’ve converted and that would lead to a major misunderstanding. Unless you actually have.

That’s just how people like me do stuffs around the neighbourhood.

Whose business is it anyway to judge our life styles and how we represent ourselves and by right does give anyone to comment (always to the woman never brave enough to confront the male head to head).

Exactly. So why are you still complaining? Welcome to the club of substantial liberals versus the fundamentalist dogmatics. You’ll realise that you aren’t the only member of it, if only you have been paying attention.

If it is not about me being a bule, then what is it about? Are you suggesting that my wife presents herself in such a way that she deserves to be called a pelacur or any of the other possible derivatives, and a traitor to her culture for marrying a bule?

Sheeeesh, I don’t know. I don’t care either. You’re the one who said it in such detailed elaboration anyways. One thing for sure, I am not accustomed to using verbal expressions such as “babi lu!” or pelacur.

Now, are you suggesting that I might have suggested that your wife presents herself in such a way that she deserves to be called a pelacur or any of the other possible derivatives, and a traitor to her culture for marrying a bule?

Welcome to the twilight zone.

Sorry Marisa but this is not how it works in the neighbourhood! Your naive and prejudiced response should probably amaze me but it doesn’t. Your suggestion is that once my wife and I have been abused that the reason for the abuse is our own fault and that we should be thankful and start dishing out the lebaran presents. Reminds me a little of the idea of “Hey Mister, mana duit?” The simple rationale being if you’re white you should give and give generously and give often.

Oh, no! I failed to amaze Rob.
Yes, well, Mr. Rob, you’re not the only one that is expected to give generously and give often, okay? Have you realised that the world isn’t about you, you, you? Even the locals have been expected to do so. Unless you’re not physically, and verbally (or even, sexually?) abused by it, then hey, at least people still think you’re still able to do so. You’re not the poor urban dweller in this situation. Be grateful.

I am not sure that either of your posts are serious, particularly after reading the tip that I should not worry about the abuse because whenever someone sees me they have the right to abuse me because I am white and it looks like I have just come out of the TV. Are you kidding me???

If it’s an ABUSE, then file for it! That’s all I’m saying. Describe how it happened, where, when, and who are the abusers. In a clear, chronological, and practical way of doing it.

And trust me, if ever this ABUSE is all about some polisi cepek or tukang parkir asking you for recehan money. I swear, I’d actually laugh AT you for real.

Your “tips” convey a deep misunderstanding of the original post, but even more interesting is your justification of the behaviour of a minority of your fellow Indonesians as “that is just the way it is!”

Oh, now you say that they’re the minority. And what makes you think that your personal issues can be a justification for everything you assume of locals? Have you ever mention anything good about us, or our qualities? Anything that is good, but not in a pitiful and inferior way, that is. For instance, Oigal said:

Term they use here is pelacur, they are not smart enough to use english.

THEY?

on March 18, 2008 at 7:11 pm28 unspun
@Oigal: Come on yourself. We are not debating the composition of bules in Indonesia and what is the critical point before they can be talked about. Argument by diversion.

I totally understand how narrow minded some locals can get about mixed couples but Marisa’s is a fair question: did your behavior – which is totally innocent and acceptable by your standards – provoke locals that may have more puritannical standards. Same question as if you wear hot pants in a conservative neighborhood and the neighbors start yapping is it them or is it you?

But that is marisa’s point. Unspun’s point is that proportionally (among the 0.00…% if you like) there are quite a few Charisma Men who, like the proverbial rotten apple spoil the whole lot. They not only invite distaste on to themselves but also to their ilk. Who are their ilk? Not fair but the public perception is bules.

If I were a bule going out with a local and the people around pass snarky comments I’d expect that and just ignore them as I would feel the action is more a reflection of them than of myself, or my girlfriend.

on March 19, 2008 at 6:18 am29 Anita
Just a few things to comment on the baliblog. First, I’m part Javanese, so I’m entitled to respond here.

Second, I don’t have to eat rice. Not in Indonesia, not here in UK. Never my favorite. In fact, I never eat rice unless I go to Asian restaurants, and I don’t miss it. 2 of my friends, from India and Madagascar, always have rice ready on their rice cookers (the Madagascarian lady is married to a Dutch, who eats rice on daily basis too). I don’t. Just pointing out that the need to eat rice to feel full, not entirely Indonesian culture, let alone Javanese’s. Maybe baliblog has to open his eyes and learn about other cultures before making such statement. PS: Have got an American consultant a few years back when I was doing a project, and he’s more into nasi padang than izzi pizza and we’re used to fight where to go for lunch.

Third, the statement “If you date a Javanese girl and she starts waving to other customers in the restaurant / bar, that is a heads-up that she has been around” is revolting; I do that all the time but it’s because I know half of Jakarta’s population, but not necessarily have dated them all, I just simply have wide networks, and hang out with people who have the same social circles. As a matter of fact, all my friends are like that, we always bump into friends, bosses, colleagues, clients, vendors, friends of friends, everywhere we go, so what? (this show how insecure the baliblog is, for being less popular than his dates).

About the snide comments, winks and whispers towards mixed-couples, sorry, never have experienced that in Jakarta, Denpasar, or my hometown; it doesn’t matter what I wear or don’t wear. Never realized how awful it could be to be a mixed-couple, and actually wonder where Oigal got this bad experience. It’s such a shame because I thought especially in Jakarta people are much more tolerant than other cities

on March 19, 2008 at 7:32 am30 unspun
@Anita: Thank you for giving Unspun what was wanted in the first place: what a Javanese (well, half anyway) woman thinks of all this pabalum in Bali Blog.

A very prescient insight that certainly takes the wind out of all the non-Indonesians writing abut Indonesians, like men telling women all about childbirth pains

on March 19, 2008 at 9:48 am31 Jakartass
Anita has brought the topic back to where it started: food. Javanese girlfriends(and wives)wanting a taste of home have been given a sound piece of advice (with a neat follow up from PJ).

Presumably Balinese girlfriends of Caucasians in Bali choose dining spots according to their upbringing. Lasses from Sumatra can find good Padang food just off Monkey Forest Rd. in Ubud and, no doubt elsewhere.

So, where are the good vegetarian restaurants for left-leaning libertarians such as myself?
…………………………

The original posts are indeed about Javanese girls who are in Bali seeking a measure of financial security. That many end up (or start out) as bar girls is a fact of life, albeit one that annoys the ‘indigenous’ Balinese. As usual, Unspun has been selective in his clipping and latched onto the ethnic labelling rather than the intent of the original posting on what is essentially a tourist guide for non-residents.

And, as usual, having baited his trap, we left-leaning ~ or right-minded in the case of Oigal ;-)~ libertarians have fallen into his trap and given a boost to his circulation, which may well have been his intent. He says that he finds “such postings repugnant”. Strange, then, that he feels the need to give them such prominence.

The Bali Blog post concludes thus: “If your girlfriend is Muslim, try to respect and support her in her religious commitments especially during the month of Ramadan. Dating a Javanese girl can be an interesting experience if both parties are open and relaxed.”

This displays a degree of cultural sensitivity which many of the comments here do not.

on March 19, 2008 at 6:39 pm32 Marisa
Pak Ong, I believe I’ve posted two comments?

If you didn’t publish the last one because it’s too harsh, well as far as I’m concerned, they deserve it. Online or offline. At least I don’t use phrases like “babi lu!”.

Unfortunately, I didn’t save the text, therefore even if you prefer not to publish it, I’ll publish it somewhere in my blog.

Could you please send it back to my email?
Sorry for the troubles.

on March 19, 2008 at 7:52 pm33 Rob
Thanks Unspun…always wanted to be a Charisma Man!

Yep, hot pants in just about any neighbourhood is not going to work around here. But your point is extreme and speaking only of my own experiences it has never been the hotpants that have been the trigger for the snide and abusive comments…besides hotpants just aren’t a very good look for me

Yes, ignoring them might be the way to go and yes it is a reflection on those making the comments more so than it is on me or the missus, but every now and then when I am having a bad hair day and need to vent, a snide or abusive comment will do the trick and I will return the favour with interest…if this makes me a bad person then so be it…bad bule, bad, bad , bad…

As for taking the winds out of one’s sails…I do not feel deflated in any way by Anita’s comments. In fact I find that I agree with her and the point about having wide-ranging networks is an important one.

I was not in my posts claiming to be an Indonesian writing about Indonesians…I am a bule who has spent a long time in Indonesia and I think I am a keen observer but if your point is that non-Indonesians can never fully understand what it is to be Indonesian, then I agree as it is kinda like a rhetorical question that does not need an answer…

The fact that Anita has not experienced it is a good thing. Yet, this does not mean it does not happen. Jakarta is a big place and to be fair the majority of Jakartans fall into the Marisa category of not giving a damn and that is a good thing because sometimes people just want to be treated the same as every one else. And if you happen to be one of those that do not give the proverbial rat’s then you are not likely to be the one making the snide comments.

It is a shame but as you point out, Unspun, that sometimes the one rotten apple spoils the bunch (or whatever the term is for a lot of apples together in the one place)…

It is clear from Marisa’s posts that she is in the category that does not give a damn and hence not one who is likely to give a damn or any commentary on mixed race couples.

Marisa…I was attempting to address specific issues in your post that went to the heart of the misconceptions in your post (at least as I see / saw them)…

I am prepared to engage in constructive debate on the issues but I agree that this issue and many others has been the subject of regular postings all over the Internet.

If your second post is even more harsh than the one here it must be a real beauty. Feel free to post it on my blog (if you want or care to)…I might resemble the Charisma Man but I do not think that google is capturing comments, your call on that front with respect to the posting of the comments.

I am not paranoid and I appreciate that you really do not give a damn (although the fact that you posted suggests that I offended you — my apologies for any offence — I really am a gentle & kind person when you get to know me)…

I was not trying to complain but I cannot speak for the others that posted here. What I was trying to convey was that this is my personal experience of living here in Indonesia. Sometimes it grates and sometimes it doesn’t but I take the good with the bad.

The abuse is the bad, but on the whole the abuse comes from a very small minority of people. I state as much in the comments I posted. I do not really understand the defence of rudeness…

I concede the point that “babi lu!” is designed to offend but for me it is about giving as good as one gets…once again if this offends you, my apologies.

Not toxic…I live my life and I move on.

Also not self-defence…once again relaying real life experiences! I am not trying to make my personal issues into some big socio-cultural debate as people who live in glass houses probably should not throw stones…

No spidol but yapping all over the place…I just cannot help myself.

A good long weekend to all!

on March 19, 2008 at 8:00 pm34 Rob
Unspun…

Is Marisa’s second comment an Akismet capture as well?

If it is I expect that you will post it once it becomes uncaptured, right?

Cheers

on March 19, 2008 at 9:56 pm35 unspun
@Marisa: sorry, Akismet caught your posts as spam. Maybe it has a halal filter for comments Have restored them

on March 19, 2008 at 10:09 pm36 Jakartass
Unspun.

As you are a non-pribumi Malaysian, you obviously have to include yourself in the category of “the non-Indonesians writing abut Indonesians. You really do post a lot about “non-Indonesians” and their/our presumed lifestyles, and you are fond of stereotyping bules, presumably Caucasian westerners, going so far as to suggest modes of living which are pure fiction.

Is there a particular epithet used by Indonesians, especially Javanese girls, when talking about Chinese-Malaysians such as yourself? Or do you hide behind your Asian skin colour and the particular shape of your eyes?

I’m just curious, because we bules don’t really understand your fixation with us. Perhaps it’s time we start fixating on you and your ethnic group. It’s just possible, although unlikely, that we’ll learn something.

Cheers.

J

on March 19, 2008 at 10:44 pm37 Rob
Unspun…Thanks for releasing Marisa’s captured comments…

As an aside…as I was sitting in the pillion passenger position on the ojek ride on the way home I was thinking in a similar vein to Jakartass but not quite as bluntly…

As I posted earlier I accept and in fact agree with you that as a non-Indonesian I can never really know what it is like to be Indonesian. Neither can I ever know what the pain of giving birth to a child is like or menstrating or any thing else that falls into that exclusive zone of one race or gender.

But likewise Indonesians cannot fully appreciate or understand the non-Indonesian experience even if they hear about it or read about it. In terms of getting over it, I get over it every day, life goes on and life is too short to sweat the little stuff!

Marisa…now that your second post has been restored and I have read it, I think I have addressed almost everything anyways in my somewhat apologetic in tone earlier post and it is much more harsh and somewhat more personal as well as being in the self-defence mode…but in my own defence I never said majority or all Indonesians. If I recall correctly it is some and minority…I also state that it is not in the kampung that I live where this sort of abuse is a problem…

Say nice things about Indonesians…always do! But the bad stuff is fair game as well! Every culture has its bad seeds that detract from the overall goodness of the majority. My culture is no different in that regard. I am not as twisted and bitter as you might think me to be…If I really hated Indonesia — I would neither still be here and I definitely would not be married to the finest woman in the world who just so happens to be Indonesian (I am sure all my friends think they are married to the finest woman in the world, to each their own fellas)…

Grateful…always, I am much better off than many others and appreciate this fact. I give and give generously but feel that I have the right to choose where I do this and I also feel that I have the right not to be abused if I do not give everytime that a request is made. Unfortunately, sometimes a polite “I can’t” is greeted with abuse. It is also not getting worked over by the coppers or the various tukangs whether they be becak or otherwise.

But the abuse here is not so much about declining a request for money but rather completely unsolicited abuse for just walking by. By my reckoning the only thing that sets me apart from the crowd in many situations is the color of my skin.

But as Jakartass pointed out in his first post that the topic really was about food and the eating habits of a particular group of women.

Once again my apologies for any offence I may have given.

on March 19, 2008 at 10:46 pm38 Rob
Unspun…I posted a comment which should have been number 37 but I guess Akismet is on the prowl again…

on March 19, 2008 at 10:55 pm39 Rob
Marisa…this is not a criticism but a suggestion, seriously!

It is Rob and just Rob…there is no Mr.

In terms of address normally titles such as Mr., Mrs., Ms., and other titles, go with the family or surname. I always encourage my students that in the Indonesian context with foreigners, and particularly bules, that it is OK to use Bapak, Ibu, or any other acceptable Indonesian title.

There are always exceptions to rules which is one of the difficulties in learning any language…I was watching Oprah the other day and Dr. Phil was on and this would be an exception. But I would imagine that in professional correspondence or a formal setting it would be Dr. whatever his family name is….

salam…

on March 19, 2008 at 11:19 pm40 unspun
@Jakartass: Shouldn’t you be signing in as Dumbass? (See Comment 7 in the thread on Conan the Barbarian and Bloggers)

What that shows is someone unable to acknowledge when they make an ass of themselves. Intellectual dishonesty.

Agree or disagree, passionate and sometimes heated, everyone on this thread has so far been civilized and honest. Now you want to introduce yet another of your hallmark dishonest arguments by questioning Unspun’s motives and derail the conversation. I think you should get with the program or return to your vinegary self writing self promoting posts about – as Tree put it – you, you and you in the Dumbass blog.

on March 20, 2008 at 10:49 am41 Oigal
Marissa,

Can’t be bothered getting into a slanging match with you.

The point the larger picture has nothing what so ever to do with Bules, or Chinese or whatever. I just find it amazing that a woman in Indonesia could find any reason to justify such behaviour.

Even if a girl was a “working girl” I fail to see how that justifies abuse (particularly in this country where there are sometimes so few options between stavation and that particular lifestyle).

Sorry but I see no benefit in making excuses for such behaviour…short walk from there..to the “she deserved it” defence of wife bashers and molesters.

on March 20, 2008 at 6:00 pm42 Anita
I actually get pestered more here in UK rather than in Indonesia. The last time happened a month ago when I was walking in a quiet neighborhood at 1.00 PM, it’s winter time so I was fully covered from head to toe, and this guy with his big trucked parked next to me suddenly honked, I almost fell because it shocked me. When I glared icily at him (a mistake), he grinned and waved.

And don’t forget that if we go to expat bars in Jakarta, lots of expat men don’t respect the barmaids, and sometimes the other patrons. Flirtatious comments, inappropriate touchings, verbal abuse, I’ve seen them (and heard them) all. Most of the barmaids aren’t trained enough to stand up and defend their rights. No bars in Jakarta actually dare to kick drunken disturbing patrons out.

I screamed and threatened to kill one old Caucasian man when I was on my way to toilet in a very crowded bar and he pinched my bum. He was over 60, with only 3 white hair on his head, big, and fat, and turned out to be my friend’s co-worker. Sleazy old bastard.

I once asked the barmaid in very quiet bar to turn down the volume of the music, but one drunk Briton started screaming and gave verbal abuse to the staff, saying he contributed 15 mil/month to this bar and he could do whatever he wanted. If my friend didn’t stop me, I’d have smacked his face and reported him to the authority (well I reported to the shareholders who were not happy at all about the incident).

I’m sure all of Westerners understand and know exactly if they behave half of what they do in Jakarta in their home country, they’ll be kicked out of the bar directly.

So I don’t think it’s fair to point your fingers to local / Indonesian men only and embracing the hollier than though mode. A jerk is a jerk, he could be expat or local, Caucasian or Indonesian, government officer or bellboy.

on March 20, 2008 at 6:40 pm43 Marisa
@ Rob Baiton

Moral of the story: Everyone is equal in the eyes of Akismet.

@ Oigal

I was not justifying a reason, I was trying to reason a justification.

Yes well, Oigal, it is clear to me now that whatever it is you consider “an abuse” wasn’t supposed to be a concern of mine in the first place, isn’t it?
I am quite sure there are a lot of people in Indonesia, both expats and the local natives, who would feel honoured to help you regarding the issue; they would and they can. Together. But what did you do? You’ve (probably) been infecting us with the same abusive behaviour that (probaby) has infected you.
Whatever, I’ve learned my lesson, I’ll have to avoid myself from making another “suggestion”.

But what if the real abused ones are the ones reading this whole discussion and staying silent, playing it safe, knowing how useless it is to fight for a cause? What if the real abused ones are the ones that have been mentally conditioned in such way that they’ve lost their guts to declare what they are against of, and why? What if the real abused ones are the ones who let the abuse happen day by day in their lives? Let’s just say that your wives blog, Oigal, Rob, ..what would they have written?

Now can you help them? Or you simply cannot be bothered by issues, except for your own personal issue? But we sure can’t help others, if we can’t help ourselves.

Pak Ong, truly sorry for the lengthy comments. Let’s just assume some people may have written about all of this and publish their articles somewhere safe and sovereign enough. Some others are stupid enough to plunge in straight to the moshpit.

— Marisa outtie. Long weekend. —

on March 21, 2008 at 5:04 am44 Rob
Anita…

As always a measured and reasoned response…

The original topic was in fact about perceived bule stereotyping of Indonesian women and the 3-haired old fat white bloke that pinched you on the butt is an example that would seem to fall right into that stereotype (not proving it is true for all white folk but rather that it exists!)…

My responses were not so much in self-defence (but to each their own on the perception front) but rather to point out that there are similar stereotypes working in reverse.

In my comments I also point out that it is a minority and that there is in any culture or society or community a bid apple that can taint the bunch. I was conscious of the stereotype and careful not to label all Indonesians with the same brush because not only is it not fair, it is also a distortion of the truth!

I can know this because I have been here for a long while. Most of the people that my wife and I count as friends have never had a problem with us and it is not to them that I refer. It is also not in the kampung where we live…it is the other places that we frequent such as government offices, malls, and other public places.

Indeed…”A jerk is a jerk” no matter what color suit they wear!

on March 21, 2008 at 5:06 am45 Rob
bad apple…sorry

on March 21, 2008 at 10:19 am46 And what do Indonesian women think? « Unspun
[…] el…Rob on Test for Indonesians: what&#82…milanalfa on Test for Indonesians: what&#82…Rob on And what do Javanese girls thi…Rob on And what do Javanese girls […]

on March 21, 2008 at 4:05 pm47 Oigal
Anita

“So I don’t think it’s fair to point your fingers to local / Indonesian men only and embracing the hollier than though mode. A jerk is a jerk, he could be expat or local, Caucasian or Indonesian, government officer or bellboy.”

A valid point, I concur and my only defence was taking a lead from the orginal posting and trying to present alternative way a looking at the issue. The orginal post was somewhat anti bule in my view (please I don’t want get into the bule thing again, Anita is right..)

Marisa,

For someone who doesn’t give a damn about me, you keep coming back and getting more more personal. Let it go as I find your comments more and more offensive. You will have to excuse me if I don’t respond in kind.

on March 21, 2008 at 4:13 pm48 Oigal
Anita..

Ooops Just read your blog..I take it back .. a real piece of (nasty) work!

on March 21, 2008 at 5:10 pm49 ryan
A quick note:

Anyone who thinks asian women are “subservient” and “docile” are either:

1. Is an asian man and never dated a western woman.

2. Is a western man and never dated an asian woman.

on March 21, 2008 at 6:12 pm50 Jakartass
And my point is that Unspun loves to explilt the racial issue because it, sorry – ‘he’ knows it gets a lot of us het up and boosts his circulation.

This is cheap PR, albeit befitting a maverick, with little interest in the communality of the rst of us.

I suggest we all ‘chill’, enjoy the rest of the weekend and allow Ong to masturbate in peace. After all, when you have to resort to cheap epithets, there ain’t much left, is there?

Respect to the rest of you – especially Maris whose last comment hit the nail on the head.

“What if the real abused ones are the ones who let the abuse happen day by day in their lives?”

Some of us don’t Marisa, we don’t. Maybe this is why we ‘attack’ Unspun, who probably as a Chinese-Malaysian attracts more abuse than any of us.

Or is it merely because of his racist, divisive and abusive posts?

J</i.

on March 22, 2008 at 1:23 am51 alex
This argument is getting very nasty and personal. The guy called Jakartass asks Unspun ” do you hide behind your Asian skin colour and the particular shape of your eyes?”

To bring up skin colur and eye shape is getting almost Nazi in its insanity. Well out of order.

He goes on “Perhaps it’s time we start fixating on you and your ethnic group. It’s just possible, although unlikely, that we’ll learn something”

“Maybe this is why we ‘attack’ Unspun, who probably as a Chinese-Malaysian attracts more abuse than any of us.”

Trust an ignorant and insensitive white man in Asia to try to insult someone he clearly hates because of his ethnicity. Ethnic tensions in Malaysia and Indonesia are not pretty and if we have to resort to this kind of racism and language I suggest thet the post is closed now. Is this Jakartass gloating about the fact that people of Chinese decent suffer abuse?

on March 22, 2008 at 11:00 pm52 unspun
@Alex: Jakartass is only a pseudonym. He’s really Dumbass. ROTFL

on March 23, 2008 at 10:50 am53 Achmad Sudarsono
Marisa,

Just curious, when you say, “your” genes — which ones would those be ?

on April 12, 2008 at 12:29 am54 bula in bekasi
indonesians offended at what others think!!! indonesian think about nobody except them selves they have no respect for anyone or anything unless they directly benifit.. gimme gimme gimme, and the rules and laws apply to eveyone but themselves and foreigners are suposed to respect them in all cases… sad trully sad.. if these things offend you then most likely your one of the people i am talking about… i mean truly just look at the way you drive your cars motors.. you can’t wait in a que or line.. have to push your way around even though there is no where to go.. rushing and disrespecting everyone on the road and still late for everything.. if muslim with jobeb, the world is suposed to bow before you.. you all are trully the sadest group of people i have ever not had the pleasure of knowing… don’t respond to this with show me through actions prove it that you are not the culture i think and know you are.. prove it!!!! and for the record most indonesian don’t even know how to fuck well.. there more to sex than spreading your legs.. learn the art.. money money money all they seek today.. and the kids i don’t know why parents send the kids to school.. why not just hire a person to go to school for them, they hire somebody to every other thing in thier lives.. rotten parents, handphones, friends and football all they care about.. when you kids are home living with you till 50 and no real job.. look in the mirror the faults lie with the reflection you see.. but as always in indonesian culture it is easier to blame everyone and everything in the world.. not kids or themselves.. so i say again show me improvement not a decline in social attitude and morallity.. but i forgot these need to made by everyone not me i am special my parents saaid so, hehehehehehehheheheheheheheheha so so sad!!!

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